Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

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Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Gregory Casamento
All,

I am launching a kickstarter project to help to create a Linux distribution based on GNUstep.  Please take a look, feel free to make suggestions and comment.  The link is here:

Thanks, GC 
--
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
http://ind.ie/phoenix/

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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Xavier Brochard
Le jeudi 18 octobre 2018, 01:41:54 CEST Gregory Casamento a écrit :

> All,
>
> I am launching a kickstarter project to help to create a Linux distribution
> based on GNUstep.  Please take a look, feel free to make suggestions and
> comment.  The link is here:
>
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/203272607/the-cacoa-linux-project-a-gnu
> step-based-distro
>
> Thanks, GC

Hi,

You don't say a word about the distribution.
Will it be based on something (ubuntu, fedora, etc.) ?
Could it be a "Debian flavor" (derivative available in Debian) ?
etc.



--
Librement,
Xavier Brochard
« La liberté est à l'homme ce que les ailes sont à l'oiseau »
(Jean-Pierre Rosnay)




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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Riccardo Mottola-5
Hi,

Xavier Brochard wrote:
> You don't say a word about the distribution.
> Will it be based on something (ubuntu, fedora, etc.) ?
> Could it be a "Debian flavor" (derivative available in Debian) ?

in case we could opt for Devuan :) :)

I am experimenting since a couple of weeks Devuan + GNUstep as one fo my
main laptops. Looks quite promising and no systemd :)

Riccardo

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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Gregory Casamento
On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 at 01:42, Gregory Casamento
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> I am launching a kickstarter project to help to create a Linux distribution based on GNUstep.  Please take a look, feel free to make suggestions and comment.  The link is here:
>
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/203272607/the-cacoa-linux-project-a-gnustep-based-distro

Oh cool!

I have plugged this on Twitter, FB, G+, Reddit and a few other places.
Good luck with it.


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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Gregory Casamento
In reply to this post by Riccardo Mottola-5
Hey

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 09:24 Riccardo Mottola <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Xavier Brochard wrote:
> You don't say a word about the distribution.
> Will it be based on something (ubuntu, fedora, etc.) ?
> Could it be a "Debian flavor" (derivative available in Debian) ?

in case we could opt for Devuan :) :)

I am experimenting since a couple of weeks Devuan + GNUstep as one fo my
main laptops. Looks quite promising and no systemd :)

Riccardo


I am considering Devuan is the basis.  It’s definitely going to be a Debian flavor. 



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http://ind.ie/phoenix/

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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Gregory Casamento
On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 at 01:42, Gregory Casamento
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> I am launching a kickstarter project to help to create a Linux distribution based on GNUstep.  Please take a look, feel free to make suggestions and comment.  The link is here:

This has kicked off an interesting discussion on Reddit. I think
everyone here needs to come and take a look, and answer if possible.

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9p9g0l/interesting_in_a_different_desktop/e838pxk/?context=3&utm_content=context&utm_medium=message&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=frontpage

Highlight:

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9p9g0l/interesting_in_a_different_desktop/e838pxk/

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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Sergii Stoian
In reply to this post by Gregory Casamento
Hi Gregory,

I didn't quite catch what's Cacao Linux different from NEXTSPACE (https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace)?
Do you plan to include some special frameworks, applications? Is it just Debian specific GNUstep build?

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 2:42 AM Gregory Casamento <[hidden email]> wrote:
All,

I am launching a kickstarter project to help to create a Linux distribution based on GNUstep.  Please take a look, feel free to make suggestions and comment.  The link is here:

Thanks, GC 
--
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
http://ind.ie/phoenix/
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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
Hi List, hi Greg,

Am 21.10.2018 um 16:06 schrieb Liam Proven <[hidden email]>:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 at 01:42, Gregory Casamento
<[hidden email]> wrote:

All,

I am launching a kickstarter project to help to create a Linux distribution based on GNUstep.  Please take a look, feel free to make suggestions and comment.  The link is here:

This has kicked off an interesting discussion on Reddit. I think
everyone here needs to come and take a look, and answer if possible.

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9p9g0l/interesting_in_a_different_desktop/e838pxk/?context=3&utm_content=context&utm_medium=message&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=frontpage

Highlight:

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9p9g0l/interesting_in_a_different_desktop/e838pxk/

it would be helpful, if Greg would chime in here. I quote this here in case Greg did not read the reddit:

"This strikes me as pretty cool (in several ways — e.g. nostalgia for a better world that almost existed and easier compatibility with MacOS).
However (and I'm not sure whether this will be read by anybody who can rectify this), how do we know that the person organising the kickstarter is who they claim to be? (Most probably he is indeed the maintainer of GNUstep, but I think that it should be good practice to make verifying such things easier when money is involved — i.e. if Gregory Casamento happens to read this, by any chance, none of this is against you, but against someone unscrupulous who might have been trying to impersonate you, and exploit your (admirable) work on free/libre software.)
The GNUstep website doesn't link to the kickstarter anywhere. The list of developers does list Gregory Casamento as the chief developer, but it only links to his blog, which again doesn't mention the kickstarter.
The twitter account of a (?) Gregory Casamento does mention the kickstarter and it links to the above mentioned blog, but the blog doesn't seem to link back to the twitter account. The twitter account is quite old, so if this were a con, this would have to have been a long con (making it far less likely); OTOH I'm not sure whether twitter doesn't allow for changing usernames, etc.“

I think this needs to be rectified …

regards,

Lars

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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Sergii Stoian
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 01:17, Sergii Stoian <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Gregory,
>
> I didn't quite catch what's Cacao Linux different from NEXTSPACE (https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace)?
> Do you plan to include some special frameworks, applications? Is it just Debian specific GNUstep build?

That's a good question.

You are the author/creator of NEXTSPACE, is that right?

Correct me if I am wrong -- my impressions were that:

* it's only partly based on GNUstep and includes non-GNUstep stuff
that merely cosmetically resembles NeXTstep?

* you're forking GNUstep and changing it

* it's fairly closely tied to CentOS and not intended to be distro-portable?

Saying that, I think you have done a much better job of explaining on
your Github page what you're working on and why.

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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Riccardo Mottola-5
In reply to this post by Gregory Casamento
Hi,

Gregory Casamento wrote:
>
> I am launching a kickstarter project to help to create a Linux
> distribution based on GNUstep.  Please take a look, feel free to make
> suggestions and comment.  The link is here:
>
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/203272607/the-cacoa-linux-project-a-gnustep-based-distro

We had the idea of a "reference" distribution many times and I think it
is a good way to spread the GNUstep word. To be honest, the announce is
a bit unexpected, I would have liked to discuss the main topics and
goals, if not public, at least with some of the core members.
As of now, I can only share some doubts and/or things I would have
ordered differently

I read the announce after a couple of days again, just to have things
settle down.

The way the description is stated and the first goal of 12K implies that
for it you will get a "complete" distro and 10.12 APIs.
I think first, that it is not very realistic, second that it is also not
necessary to get all 10.12 APIs to get a full working distribution with
desktop!
A subset of these APIs is needed - after all ever since 10.4 one can say
that the Cocoa APIs are very complete for a good desktop!
Less exciting, but for the first step cleaning up what we have is
perhaps enough, while the rest is the work for actually fitting all
things together for a distribution.


WebKit port and WebCore are of course very much needed  - as well as a
set of supporting other Frameworks, at least partially implemented, like
CoreFoundation and CoreGraphics and some basic Framework for device
management.

Instead of mentioning Darling, I would have mentioned a precise set of
Applications and Utilities native for GNUstep which are going to compose
this "distro".
After all, a Distro is a sum of Apps and Frameworks on top of a Linux
foundation.

Having super Cocoa API, but nothing to show it with, is of little
interest for a distribution, in my opinion.

I can write it the other way around: the "project" seems to sum up
different ideas living in GNUstep: desktop within a distribution,
porting (Mac compatibility) and porting up to the extreme of Darling.

A Distribution instead for me is pointing to the end-users, perhaps more
a developer or more desktop. I would have thus put these steps for a
"Distribution". Just as an idea, nothing definitive:

1) packaging and preparation of the distribution foundation (e.g. Devuan
+ all relevant packages we want in), build architecture, etc. The
"bases". Possibly a LiveCD that can be installed. Questions about
servers and repositories need to be addressed doo
2) Enhancements and fixes to
     a) Foundation and AppKit: e.g. completion of printing, fixes for X
bugs (etc etc)
     b) completion of certain core apps that want to be included (e.g.
Debugger in ProjectCenter, completion of Bean or any other thing which
could be relevant)
3) New Frameworks, e.g. WebKit/WebCore
4) Ported apps from Mac (which? Terminal, graphics utility ..... XXXX)
5) New Apps like Installer and Login
6) APIs just enough to support 3, 4 and 5

Perhaps less shiny than the promise of Darling and 10.12 api, but more
"distribution" oriented. There are a lot of hairy things.

Nothing prevents us of a separate funding for other specific things.

Riccardo


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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Sergii Stoian
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:49 PM Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 01:17, Sergii Stoian <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Gregory,
>
> I didn't quite catch what's Cacao Linux different from NEXTSPACE (https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace)?
> Do you plan to include some special frameworks, applications? Is it just Debian specific GNUstep build?

That's a good question.

You are the author/creator of NEXTSPACE, is that right?
I am.

Correct me if I am wrong -- my impressions were that:

* it's only partly based on GNUstep and includes non-GNUstep stuff
that merely cosmetically resembles NeXTstep?
GNUstep libraries, libdispatch, libobjc2 and  build toolchain. Non-GNUstep is my code, NeXTstep graphics (icons, login panel). I hope someday it will be refreshed with new graphics with the NeXT's style.
What do you mean "cosmetically"? Icons? Yes. Look and feel? Yes. But it is much more than just look - that's why I need integration with underlying system (look below my CentOS explanations) and spend a lot of time to fill Workspace and applications with uniform, solid user experience (window management, startup, shutdown, keyboard shortcuts, mouse preferences, screen and display management). More to come.

* you're forking GNUstep and changing it
Not literally forking but current development is based on some outdated GNUstep libraries with some patches. Patches are aimed to be included in GNUstep later.
The main reason is to have some stable base code and focus on applications and environment. Right now I'm the only developer and do not have time to align my code with changing GNUstep.
After I reach the version 1.0 (it's really close now) I plan to return to GNUstep libraries (I have patches more ideas not implemented yet for GNUstep: screnn resolution handling, high DPI and so on).

* it's fairly closely tied to CentOS and not intended to be distro-portable?
Not that much. It's integrated with some system libraries and tools: Xorg (Xkb, XRandR), D-Bus, NetworkManager, PulseAudio, UDisks, UPower. It's not CentOS specific nowadays.
I want the NEXTSPACE will be Operating System for users and developers.

Saying that, I think you have done a much better job of explaining on
your Github page what you're working on and why.
I hope so. And Gregory's kickstarter page quite confusing for that matter.

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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Gregory Casamento
In reply to this post by Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf
Hey

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 02:48 [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi List, hi Greg,

Am 21.10.2018 um 16:06 schrieb Liam Proven <[hidden email]>:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 at 01:42, Gregory Casamento
<[hidden email]> wrote:

All,

I am launching a kickstarter project to help to create a Linux distribution based on GNUstep.  Please take a look, feel free to make suggestions and comment.  The link is here:

This has kicked off an interesting discussion on Reddit. I think
everyone here needs to come and take a look, and answer if possible.

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9p9g0l/interesting_in_a_different_desktop/e838pxk/?context=3&utm_content=context&utm_medium=message&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=frontpage

Highlight:

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9p9g0l/interesting_in_a_different_desktop/e838pxk/

it would be helpful, if Greg would chime in here. I quote this here in case Greg did not read the reddit:

"This strikes me as pretty cool (in several ways — e.g. nostalgia for a better world that almost existed and easier compatibility with MacOS).
However (and I'm not sure whether this will be read by anybody who can rectify this), how do we know that the person organising the kickstarter is who they claim to be? (Most probably he is indeed the maintainer of GNUstep, but I think that it should be good practice to make verifying such things easier when money is involved — i.e. if Gregory Casamento happens to read this, by any chance, none of this is against you, but against someone unscrupulous who might have been trying to impersonate you, and exploit your (admirable) work on free/libre software.)
The GNUstep website doesn't link to the kickstarter anywhere. The list of developers does list Gregory Casamento as the chief developer, but it only links to his blog, which again doesn't mention the kickstarter.
The twitter account of a (?) Gregory Casamento does mention the kickstarter and it links to the above mentioned blog, but the blog doesn't seem to link back to the twitter account. The twitter account is quite old, so if this were a con, this would have to have been a long con (making it far less likely); OTOH I'm not sure whether twitter doesn't allow for changing usernames, etc.“

I think this needs to be rectified …


I responded to this and confirmed it’s me.  I will also add the links in the appropriate places. 


regards,

Lars
--
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
http://ind.ie/phoenix/

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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Gregory Casamento
In reply to this post by Sergii Stoian
Hey,

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 19:17 Sergii Stoian <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Gregory,

I didn't quite catch what's Cacao Linux different from NEXTSPACE (https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace)?

It will be based on Devaun or Debian.  It will use GNUstep applications from GNUstep itself and GAP.   It will not use any graphics from Apple or NeXT if I don’t have it I’ll make it or ask for help making it. 

I intend on using the loginpanel.app application I wrote years ago as the means of signing into the system instead of anything based on gnome or some other non gs based solution.  

Part of the reason for doing this is to encourage more development to make it more and more complete because once we have a reference distribution the gaps will become clear. 

Do you plan to include some special frameworks, applications?

I am writing a facade for webview based on CEF3.  I did something similar using berkelium at one point.  You can look in GAP for that.    It will likely use Vespucci as the GUI. 

Is it just Debian specific GNUstep build?

Not specific to Debian. I intend to make it as generic as possible. 


On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 2:42 AM Gregory Casamento <[hidden email]> wrote:
All,

I am launching a kickstarter project to help to create a Linux distribution based on GNUstep.  Please take a look, feel free to make suggestions and comment.  The link is here:

Thanks, GC 
--
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
http://ind.ie/phoenix/
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--
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http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
http://ind.ie/phoenix/

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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Gregory Casamento
In reply to this post by Riccardo Mottola-5
Hey,

All of these are valid points.  The reason I rushed it a bit was because I wanted to spark the discussion and not have it held up on the list until some unclear decision was made. 

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:06 Riccardo Mottola <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

Gregory Casamento wrote:
>
> I am launching a kickstarter project to help to create a Linux
> distribution based on GNUstep.  Please take a look, feel free to make
> suggestions and comment.  The link is here:
>
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/203272607/the-cacoa-linux-project-a-gnustep-based-distro

We had the idea of a "reference" distribution many times and I think it
is a good way to spread the GNUstep word. To be honest, the announce is
a bit unexpected, I would have liked to discuss the main topics and
goals, if not public, at least with some of the core members.
As of now, I can only share some doubts and/or things I would have
ordered differently

I read the announce after a couple of days again, just to have things
settle down.

The way the description is stated and the first goal of 12K implies that
for it you will get a "complete" distro and 10.12 APIs.
I think first, that it is not very realistic, second that it is also not
necessary to get all 10.12 APIs to get a full working distribution with
desktop!

I’ve taken down that claim.  Actually I did so days ago. 

A subset of these APIs is needed - after all ever since 10.4 one can say
that the Cocoa APIs are very complete for a good desktop!

Yes indeed, but 10.4 is not the pinnacle of Mac / cocoa / next evolution as some might believe it to be.   I think more realistically is to bring some of these up to par with 10.12 not all. 

Less exciting, but for the first step cleaning up what we have is
perhaps enough, while the rest is the work for actually fitting all
things together for a distribution.


WebKit port and WebCore are of course very much needed  - as well as a
set of supporting other Frameworks, at least partially implemented, like
CoreFoundation and CoreGraphics and some basic Framework for device
management.

I will at least have a working webview based on cef3. 



Instead of mentioning Darling, I would have mentioned a precise set of
Applications and Utilities native for GNUstep which are going to compose
this "distro".
After all, a Distro is a sum of Apps and Frameworks on top of a Linux
foundation.

Good idea. 

Having super Cocoa API, but nothing to show it with, is of little
interest for a distribution, in my opinion.

Agreed. 

I can write it the other way around: the "project" seems to sum up
different ideas living in GNUstep: desktop within a distribution,
porting (Mac compatibility) and porting up to the extreme of Darling.

A Distribution instead for me is pointing to the end-users, perhaps more
a developer or more desktop. I would have thus put these steps for a
"Distribution". Just as an idea, nothing definitive:

1) packaging and preparation of the distribution foundation (e.g. Devuan
+ all relevant packages we want in), build architecture, etc. The
"bases". Possibly a LiveCD that can be installed. Questions about
servers and repositories need to be addressed doo
2) Enhancements and fixes to
     a) Foundation and AppKit: e.g. completion of printing, fixes for X
bugs (etc etc)
     b) completion of certain core apps that want to be included (e.g.
Debugger in ProjectCenter, completion of Bean or any other thing which
could be relevant)
3) New Frameworks, e.g. WebKit/WebCore
4) Ported apps from Mac (which? Terminal, graphics utility ..... XXXX)
5) New Apps like Installer and Login
6) APIs just enough to support 3, 4 and 5

All of these are good points.  I think we need to focus on 2,3,5,6. 


Perhaps less shiny than the promise of Darling and 10.12 api, but more
"distribution" oriented. There are a lot of hairy things.

Nothing prevents us of a separate funding for other specific things.

True



Riccardo

--
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GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
http://ind.ie/phoenix/

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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Sergii Stoian
In reply to this post by Gregory Casamento
Hi,

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 2:34 AM Gregory Casamento <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey,

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 19:17 Sergii Stoian <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Gregory,

I didn't quite catch what's Cacao Linux different from NEXTSPACE (https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace)?

It will be based on Devaun or Debian. 
NEXTSPACE is based in CentOS only now.  
It will use GNUstep applications from GNUstep itself and GAP.  
NEXTSPACE source tree includes some applications from GAP: Terminal (a lot of fixes, additions and polishing) , TimeMon, TextEdit, loginpanel.app (Login). I'm for including more applications - I just don't have time for this doing myself.
It will not use any graphics from Apple or NeXT if I don’t have it I’ll make it or ask for help making it. 
If I remove NeXT graphics it will be what you want. ;) Seriously, replacing the graphics is a very easy! I've included NeXT graphics to share an idea what desktop/developer environment I wish to be.
I think, carefully prepared graphics is essential to project success. But I don't see the designers around to do so.

I intend on using the loginpanel.app application I wrote years ago as the means of signing into the system instead of anything based on gnome or some other non gs based solution.
Have you ever tried to use NEXTSPACE? ;) Login.app has some of your code. It is pure GNUstep application.
Try it - it's already usable.

Part of the reason for doing this is to encourage more development to make it more and more complete because once we have a reference distribution the gaps will become clear. 
I had the same reasons when started NEXTSPACE (as I wrote in announcement letter to this list). I plan to return to ProjectCenter development after NEXTSPACE release.
I guess we can join our efforts.

Do you plan to include some special frameworks, applications?

I am writing a facade for webview based on CEF3.  I did something similar using berkelium at one point.  You can look in GAP for that.    It will likely use Vespucci as the GUI.
Great.

Is it just Debian specific GNUstep build?

Not specific to Debian. I intend to make it as generic as possible. 
Good.


On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 2:42 AM Gregory Casamento <[hidden email]> wrote:
All,

I am launching a kickstarter project to help to create a Linux distribution based on GNUstep.  Please take a look, feel free to make suggestions and comment.  The link is here:

Thanks, GC 
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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Sergii Stoian
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 22:15, Sergii Stoian <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> GNUstep libraries, libdispatch, libobjc2 and  build toolchain. Non-GNUstep is my code, NeXTstep graphics (icons, login panel). I hope someday it will be refreshed with new graphics with the NeXT's style.

OK. Thanks for the answers so far.

So what I would like to ask is:

* can you itemise what you are _not_ using, and why?

* can you itemise any new components you're creating, and why?

* are your new components or code under the same license as GNUstep?
If not, why not?

* would you be interested in working withing the GNUstep project and
passing your changes and new code upstream? If not, why not?

> What do you mean "cosmetically"? Icons? Yes. Look and feel? Yes. But it is much more than just look - that's why I need integration with underlying system (look below my CentOS explanations) and spend a lot of time to fill Workspace and applications with uniform, solid user experience (window management, startup, shutdown, keyboard shortcuts, mouse preferences, screen and display management). More to come.

By "cosmetically" I mean that, for instance, GNUstep already has a
workspace manager, but AIUI you are not using it.

You say that you're using some of Window Maker but not all. Why not?
Are you passing changes upstream to Window Maker?


> Not literally forking but current development is based on some outdated GNUstep libraries

Why?

> with some patches. Patches are aimed to be included in GNUstep later.

OK... but why later?

> The main reason is to have some stable base code and focus on applications and environment. Right now I'm the only developer and do not have time to align my code with changing GNUstep.

Is GNUstep really changing that fast?

> After I reach the version 1.0 (it's really close now) I plan to return to GNUstep libraries (I have patches more ideas not implemented yet for GNUstep: screnn resolution handling, high DPI and so on).

OK. How do you intend to "return"?  Take a newer snapshot and work
from that? (This is how Ubuntu  works with respect to Debian.
Basically, every 6 months, they take a snapshot of Debian "sid" and
then work from that.)

Is it part of your intention that your work all ends up in GNUstep?

If not, why not?

I'm not trying to challenge you here but I do not really understand
what you are doing.

You asked:

> I didn't quite catch what's Cacao Linux different from NEXTSPACE (https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace)?
> Do you plan to include some special frameworks, applications? Is it just Debian specific GNUstep build?

I would say that there are 2 main differences.

[1] Gregory wants to use plain code straight from GNUstep and make a
Debian-based distro from it. In contrast you seem to be doing your own
thing, which happens to be mainly based on GNUstep.

[2] Gregory wants a general-purpose distro as a showcase for GNUstep.
Not something that inherits from GNUstep and does more, something that
shows off what GNUstep is and can do.

I hope I understand his intentions correctly.

Do you see the difference?

> Not that much. It's integrated with some system libraries and tools: Xorg (Xkb, XRandR), D-Bus, NetworkManager, PulseAudio, UDisks, UPower. It's not CentOS specific nowadays.

Aren't all those things in (for instance) Debian and openSUSE as well?

People have strong loyalties to their own distros.

Also, some distros are more current, or have better 3rd party support.

Today, Ubuntu is more or less the default Linux for most people. There
is a lot of 3rd party software that only targets Ubuntu. It's a fairly
modern, fairly fast-moving distro with a regular update cycle which is
clear and well understood. It's also quite desktop-focus.

CentOS is a slow-moving, server-centric distro, owned by RH for
reasons that are not clear to me even as a former RH employee. The
"official" free RH distro is Fedora. CentOS is a sort of unsupported
branch of the much slower-moving RHEL.

I personally don't like Fedora much and I don't like RH's package
management tools.

I prefer SUSE and Ubuntu's tools.

My first choice would be Ubuntu, or failing that Debian or Devuan. My
second choice would probably be openSUSE because they pay my bills.
:-)

> I want the NEXTSPACE will be Operating System for users and developers.

OK... So why CentOS then? Why a slow-moving server distro without a
fixed clear update cycle?

> I hope so. And Gregory's kickstarter page quite confusing for that matter.

It is, yes, I agree. But remember the FOSS mantra: "release early,
release often". Better to get it out there than spend ages polishing
it. Failing to do this is what killed Etoilé.


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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Gregory Casamento
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 01:51, Gregory Casamento
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hey,
>
> All of these are valid points.  The reason I rushed it a bit was because I wanted to spark the discussion and not have it held up on the list until some unclear decision was made.

Is there anything I can do to help in terms of writing words (not
code)? I would be delighted to assist with text for the web.

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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Matt Butch
In reply to this post by Gregory Casamento
This looks really cool!

Anything I can do to help, I will. I've been meaning to get more involved in GNUstep, this is a good way to spur me!


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Sent with Mac OS X High Sierra Mail 11.4 (3445.8.2)




On Oct 17, 2018, at 19:41, Gregory Casamento <[hidden email]> wrote:

All,

I am launching a kickstarter project to help to create a Linux distribution based on GNUstep.  Please take a look, feel free to make suggestions and comment.  The link is here:

Thanks, GC 
--
Gregory Casamento
GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant
http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com
http://ind.ie/phoenix/
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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Sergii Stoian
In reply to this post by Liam Proven


On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 2:30 PM Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 22:15, Sergii Stoian <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> GNUstep libraries, libdispatch, libobjc2 and  build toolchain. Non-GNUstep is my code, NeXTstep graphics (icons, login panel). I hope someday it will be refreshed with new graphics with the NeXT's style.

OK. Thanks for the answers so far.

So what I would like to ask is:
* can you itemise what you are _not_ using, and why?
* can you itemise any new components you're creating, and why?
You can find answers at github page, section "Why am I doing this?". Essential point is a "...look, feel, and design principles of NeXTSTEP ".
At past in this list I saw numerous discussions about "boring, gray, outdated GUI from 90th". I like it and don't want to waste my time for discussions.

* are your new components or code under the same license as GNUstep?
Yes.
If not, why not?

* would you be interested in working withing the GNUstep project and
passing your changes and new code upstream? If not, why not?
Patches to GNUstep libraries will be passed upstream. If may patches/changes for some reason will be unacceptable - I'll leave them in my project. Everybody will be happy. :)
Other code is my personal vision of ideal desktop. I'm writing it for my personal usage. If somebody will find it useful - fine.

> What do you mean "cosmetically"? Icons? Yes. Look and feel? Yes. But it is much more than just look - that's why I need integration with underlying system (look below my CentOS explanations) and spend a lot of time to fill Workspace and applications with uniform, solid user experience (window management, startup, shutdown, keyboard shortcuts, mouse preferences, screen and display management). More to come.

By "cosmetically" I mean that, for instance, GNUstep already has a
workspace manager, but AIUI you are not using it.
IMHO GWorkspace is the file manager not the Workspace Manager. For example, docking applications to WindowMaker Dock with drag and drop from File Viewer is not possible in GWorkspace by design. There are many such little features (window and application management, focus switches) which seriously affects the overall feeling/UX of desktop.

You say that you're using some of Window Maker but not all. Why not?
Are you passing changes upstream to Window Maker?
I've tried. But my patches do not bring new functionality to Window Maker itself. So I've stopped creating patches for WindowMaker. It works for me as it is.

> Not literally forking but current development is based on some outdated GNUstep libraries
Why?
Because changes in GNUstep code sometimes grabs my time for bug-hunting outside of my applications development.

> with some patches. Patches are aimed to be included in GNUstep later.
OK... but why later?
There are several reasons:
1. I'm not sure that I've implemented some functionality correctly enough.
2. It works for now and I have more interesting things to do right now to achieve my goals.

> The main reason is to have some stable base code and focus on applications and environment. Right now I'm the only developer and do not have time to align my code with changing GNUstep.
Is GNUstep really changing that fast?
I changes. And I have no serious reasons to stick with master/HEAD branch of GNUstep right now.

> After I reach the version 1.0 (it's really close now) I plan to return to GNUstep libraries (I have patches more ideas not implemented yet for GNUstep: screnn resolution handling, high DPI and so on).

OK. How do you intend to "return"?  Take a newer snapshot and work
from that? (This is how Ubuntu  works with respect to Debian.
Basically, every 6 months, they take a snapshot of Debian "sid" and
then work from that.)
It means update patches to new versions of GNUstep libraries. Test it and send it via pull request for discussion.

Is it part of your intention that your work all ends up in GNUstep?
If not, why not?
My intention quite clearly stated at github page. I hope changes to GNUstep libraries will be accepted. Other code - I don't think about it but why not?

I'm not trying to challenge you here but I do not really understand
what you are doing.
Thank you. I really do understand what am I doing for about 3 years.


You asked:

> I didn't quite catch what's Cacao Linux different from NEXTSPACE (https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace)?
> Do you plan to include some special frameworks, applications? Is it just Debian specific GNUstep build?

I would say that there are 2 main differences.

[1] Gregory wants to use plain code straight from GNUstep and make a
Debian-based distro from it. In contrast you seem to be doing your own
thing, which happens to be mainly based on GNUstep.

[2] Gregory wants a general-purpose distro as a showcase for GNUstep.
Not something that inherits from GNUstep and does more, something that
shows off what GNUstep is and can do.

I hope I understand his intentions correctly.
I understand. Gregory has already replied me.

Do you see the difference?

> Not that much. It's integrated with some system libraries and tools: Xorg (Xkb, XRandR), D-Bus, NetworkManager, PulseAudio, UDisks, UPower. It's not CentOS specific nowadays.

Aren't all those things in (for instance) Debian and openSUSE as well?
I don't know.

People have strong loyalties to their own distros.
Also, some distros are more current, or have better 3rd party support.
Often commercial applications has support for Ubuntu and RHEL/CentOS. I've chose CentOS.

Today, Ubuntu is more or less the default Linux for most people. There
is a lot of 3rd party software that only targets Ubuntu. It's a fairly
modern, fairly fast-moving distro with a regular update cycle which is
clear and well understood. It's also quite desktop-focus.
Ubuntu has it's own mature desktop. Why it should be replaced?

CentOS is a slow-moving, server-centric distro, owned by RH for
reasons that are not clear to me even as a former RH employee. The
"official" free RH distro is Fedora. CentOS is a sort of unsupported
branch of the much slower-moving RHEL.
And it is great. I have Ubuntu installed aside of CentOS on my laptop. Sometimes Ubuntu losts WiFi, CentOS - never! I like it.
I don't need to spend days trying to understand why my application behaves wrong after system package updates.

I personally don't like Fedora much and I don't like RH's package
management tools.

I prefer SUSE and Ubuntu's tools.

My first choice would be Ubuntu, or failing that Debian or Devuan. My
second choice would probably be openSUSE because they pay my bills.
:-)
I think the user shouldn't know what's inside your working environment: Cocoa or GNUstep, Linux, Mach or BSD.
As many users of NeXTSTEP just use it's applications without knowing version of the Mach kernel. ;)

> I want the NEXTSPACE will be Operating System for users and developers.

OK... So why CentOS then? Why a slow-moving server distro without a fixed clear update cycle?
Because it lets me do my work. And plenty of 3rd party applications works and supported here (Maya, Davinci Resolve, VirtualBox to name a few).
For example: I switch NEXTSPACE development from FreeBSD to CentOS 7. At that time CentOS already has systemd, Ubuntu has upstart. Now it's mainstream.
Firefox version is 60.2.2 ESR. What fast-movement do you need?
Personally, I really tired of fast movement from GNOME 2 to Unity, from Unity to GNOME 3 in Ubuntu.

> I hope so. And Gregory's kickstarter page quite confusing for that matter.

It is, yes, I agree. But remember the FOSS mantra: "release early, release often".

Better to get it out there than spend ages polishing it. Failing to do this is what killed Etoilé.
As for me, Etoilé is great playground for conceptual architectural masterpieces without really useful working desktop.
My intention more pragmatic: make comfort, fast and useful desktop environment even in the sake of code beauty. ;)
And I want it to be less featured by more polished in terms of UI/UX and stability. :)


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Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution

Liam Proven
On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 at 00:47, Sergii Stoian <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You can find answers at github page, section "Why am I doing this?". Essential point is a "...look, feel, and design principles of NeXTSTEP ".
> At past in this list I saw numerous discussions about "boring, gray, outdated GUI from 90th". I like it and don't want to waste my time for discussions.

OK.

Personally, I agree on both counts. I think NeXTstep was the
best-looking desktop UI ever created, and I don't want any form of
modernisation or change.

And I also think a rich, complete NeXT-like desktop for Linux is long
long overdue.

[...]

I've edited out my other comments because they were all "OK" or "fair
enough". :-)

> IMHO GWorkspace is the file manager not the Workspace Manager. For example, docking applications to WindowMaker Dock with drag and drop from File Viewer is not possible in GWorkspace by design. There are many such little features (window and application management, focus switches) which seriously affects the overall feeling/UX of desktop.

Hmmm. All right.

>> I'm not trying to challenge you here but I do not really understand
>> what you are doing.
>
> Thank you. I really do understand what am I doing for about 3 years.

Heh. :-D I would hope so!

> I understand. Gregory has already replied me.

Aha! If it was offlist intentionally, then fine. If it was
accidentally -- very easy with this list -- then would you both be
willing to share it?

> Ubuntu has it's own mature desktop. Why it should be replaced?

It has about 6!

Official default: GNOME 3
Optional: KDE, Maté, Xfce, LXDE, Budgie
Unofficial/3rd party: Cinnamon, Enlightenment, Pantheon, and more

So it's one of the most desktop-agnostic distros, along with Fedora.

They are almost all to some extent Windows-like desktops, though, or
things modified from Windows-like desktops.

> And it is great. I have Ubuntu installed aside of CentOS on my laptop. Sometimes Ubuntu losts WiFi, CentOS - never! I like it.
> I don't need to spend days trying to understand why my application behaves wrong after system package updates.

Hmmmm. Interesting.

To be fair, I hear things like this a lot from RH advocates.
Personally, when I tried RH, both when I worked there and privately, I
find it far less reliable than Ubuntu. Stuff doesn't work, needs
manual tweaking, or needs 3rd party drivers which RH don't make
available as they aren't FOSS.

It's just one of those things. Factionalism, which always makes me sad.

> I think the user shouldn't know what's inside your working environment: Cocoa or GNUstep, Linux, Mach or BSD.
> As many users of NeXTSTEP just use it's applications without knowing version of the Mach kernel. ;)

If you include Mac OS X users in that, then yes, I see what you mean.

Sadly the Linux world is not like that -- except perhaps for Android
and ChromeOS.

> Because it lets me do my work. And plenty of 3rd party applications works and supported here (Maya, Davinci Resolve, VirtualBox to name a few).

OK.

> For example: I switch NEXTSPACE development from FreeBSD to CentOS 7. At that time CentOS already has systemd, Ubuntu has upstart. Now it's mainstream.
> Firefox version is 60.2.2 ESR. What fast-movement do you need?

Hmmm. Perhaps I need to try CentOS 7 again. The last time I looked, it
contained very old versions of things.

> Personally, I really tired of fast movement from GNOME 2 to Unity, from Unity to GNOME 3 in Ubuntu.

I think that is unfair.

In its 14 years, Ubuntu switched desktops twice. One to Unity, because
its efforts to participate in GNOME 3 development were rebuffed,
rudely refused.

I supported this. I find the GNOME community hard to interact with and
I strongly dislike GNOME 3 myself.

And then, 5y later, after a HackerNews discussion, it killed off its
own desktop and went back to GNOME 3.

This saddened me and I may yet stop using Ubuntu because of it, but it
was a pragmatic decision, sadly.

>  You can install it right now: https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/wiki/Build-and-install.

I had a look. To be honest, it looks considerably more complex than I
am comfortable with.

ISO files are where I am at. Give me an ISO and I will try it. :-D

> As for me, Etoilé is great playground for conceptual architectural masterpieces without really useful working desktop.

It may be. They never released a working ISO, as far as I know, and
for a lot of people, myself included, if the instructions start with
"get the source here" then we just stop.


> My intention more pragmatic: make comfort, fast and useful desktop environment even in the sake of code beauty. ;)
> And I want it to be less featured by more polished in terms of UI/UX and stability. :)

Laudable aims. Good luck!

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